Quote from Zoboomafoo on 18.10.2022, 21:44

You are in fact correct, it is a known fact that people in the ShotOnline game do use a calculator to play the game. After x years, many can calculate or estimate rather the conditions based on past experiences and factors discovered through trial and error.

This raises the question:

What are considered calculators and what are not?

There are programs such as EZShot Calculator that have been developed that are explicitly defined. However, there are things like charts that "calculate" a % for a certain club in certain conditions (typically sun/cloud/rain), chipping charts, and handheld/desktop calculators.

Anyone can go to the range and find a % that needs to be added for clouds, rain. Anyone can discover a method for finding yards to be added/subtracted for x magnitude of wind. These factors are needed to play the game at the high level that we do.

I do not condone the act of using calculators

However, it significantly speeds up the process of these mind "calculations" that some people cannot do efficiently or simply too lazy to do so in their heads.

I agree with playing under a 45 sec shot clock (S_h_o_t has proposed for next season already). You can see at the highest of levels, ex. Premier League on DE server, that the players use the entirety of the 45 seconds (somewhere between 30-40 seconds most of the time).  The best way to get better is to be put under conditions in which you need to perform.

Thank you for raising good points. Good luck on the remainder of the season.

Quote from tarragonense on 19.10.2022, 14:53

I appreciate your comment.

You raised up the problem to differentiate between legal and illegal behaviors pointing as an example the question if there exist a legal way of calculation such as making estimations (or calculations) based on own experiences (for example: trial and error or practice on driving range) and where has to been drawn the line to illegal calculations.

I guess the answer is not so difficult as it may seem:

I think there is a common sense and everybody will agree with the first and indispensable requirement for playing legally this game which consists in the nature of the players as human beings.

 

In all “official” competitions offered by SO has to been turned off any putting help, especially caddy Emma Level 10. Therefor has to been deduced that it is prohibited the use or application of robots, machines or any other form of artificial intelligence.

In addition, I am sure everybody will agree that it is illegal when a player doesn’t play itself but letting play another person.

The simple and obvious outcome of this is, that there are two basic conditions to fulfill:

1.) Player has to be a human being and its forbidden to employ any artificial intelligence;

2.) Player has to play personally.

It is obvious that “personally” includes every single step to execute a shot as analyze the conditions which affects the shot, find a decision and finally transfer all by choosing a certain club and shooting with a certain % of power.

So we can distinguish easily between legal and illegal calculation by applicating there above indicated two requirements

Which behavior is legal?

Persons are playing - legally - this game when acting themselves, that means that the player itself has to do every single step to execute a shot as analyze the conditions which affects the shot, make a decision and finally transfer all by choosing a certain club and shooting with a certain % of power.

If you estimate or calculate (a calculation is just a more exactly form of estimation) you will do nothing else than apply experiences or knowledges you achieved (made) by your own.

If you use a calculator (doesn’t matter what type such as hand-held, pocket or PC-based) it wil be still yourself who putts in all the necessary data to execute the computation or calculation. The most important point is that it is your own decision which mathematic formula you apply for the calculation.

If you use chart-lists (I guess that a least most of advanced players do so when playing with wedges) you do nothing else than apply experiences or knowledges gotten by your own. It is you who does it by yourself; You are the person who develop the chart list by making notes of the results (distances) of a certain shot executed by yourself with a certain % of power. So chart lists are nothing else than the result of your own work without any help of another person.

Which behavior is illegal?

Persons are playing - illegally - this game when they do not act themselves, that means when they not execute on its own every single step to execute a shot as analyze the conditions which affects the shot, make a decision, and finally transfer all by choosing a certain club and shooting with a certain % of power.

There can be no doubt that using a special program or application does not comply with the basic requirements for several reasons.

First of all: Programs or applications are a form of artificial intelligence.

Second: The player has to choose and to execute every single step of calculation. If you putt in at a program some data as distance between tee and hole or wind and weather conditions it will not be enough to get a usable result. It’s the program or application by itself which applies a pre-stored mathematic formula (normally business secret of Developer and unknown by Users ) which is indispensable for getting a usable result. Based on that mathematic formula the program gives you the result. Also, it is the program by itself and based on pre-stored algorisms who decides which club to employ.

Consequence: The player is just executing the out-putt of the program or application. This does not constitute an autonomic behavior.

 

Conclusion:

Everybody who uses a program or application for calculations is committing an illegal behavior.

By the way: When it occurs during a tournament or a competition with monetary value-prices, which is the case of SO-League because there are promised rewards in CC, using a calculation program could constitute a criminal act (fraud).

 

In relation to reducing the shot clock to 45 seconds:

I am aware that in spite of all my remarks some players will carry on using calculation programs. We cannot avoid it completely.

I guess that the conditions of the game must not be orientated to a minority and players using programs are a minority.

As Zoboomafoo already mentioned, a limitation of shot clock to 45 seconds is not proper to avoid using of programs. If those players still can use their programs within 45 second and get an - illegal - advantage a shot clock limitation to 45 seconds will generate even more advantage for them because playing Golf is not like a 100-meter-sprint!!!!! For making a good shot you need a few of considerations and calculations which require a minimum of time. A program is able to calculates much faster than a human being. As more time a human being has as more considerations and calculations could make. Only if fair players have a minimum of 60 seconds they have the possibility to compensate the advantage of the cheaters. Maybe the advantage created by using calculation programs could be compensated completely or even eliminated by extending the shot clock to 90 second. If cheaters cannot be avoided than give the fair players the time to compensate illegal advantages.

What happens if you reduce the shot clock you can see in Open Tour games. There Golf is

reduced to a pure lottery.

 

Hope I did not bore anyone with my remarks

Wish everyone good luck for remaining season.

 

Quote from RombinatoR on 20.10.2022, 19:56

Quote from tarragonense on 19.10.2022, 14:53

In relation to reducing the shot clock to 45 seconds:

I am aware that in spite of all my remarks some players will carry on using calculation programs. We cannot avoid it completely.

I guess that the conditions of the game must not be orientated to a minority and players using programs are a minority.

As Zoboomafoo already mentioned, a limitation of shot clock to 45 seconds is not proper to avoid using of programs. If those players still can use their programs within 45 second and get an - illegal - advantage a shot clock limitation to 45 seconds will generate even more advantage for them because playing Golf is not like a 100-meter-sprint!!!!! For making a good shot you need a few of considerations and calculations which require a minimum of time. A program is able to calculates much faster than a human being. As more time a human being has as more considerations and calculations could make. Only if fair players have a minimum of 60 seconds they have the possibility to compensate the advantage of the cheaters. Maybe the advantage created by using calculation programs could be compensated completely or even eliminated by extending the shot clock to 90 second. If cheaters cannot be avoided than give the fair players the time to compensate illegal advantages.

What happens if you reduce the shot clock you can see in Open Tour games. There Golf is

reduced to a pure lottery.

 

 

I've read this thread carefully and I think a few things need to be cleared up. This is gonna be a long post, as much as your previous posts because there are a lot of interesting points:

 

• Calculators are not AIs. They just execute a math formula created by a human, with manually entered parameters. They don't do anything else than calculating an outcome based on that formula, that can contain errors too.
And then, calculators can only do maths for you. It may sound silly but it's very important to stress it. Calculators only manipulate numbers in a fraction of a second and without messing up the result. That's the only thing they're better at than human beings. But in SO context, you usually don't have to do much more complex than adding some 8% to a 576y target, or aiming 2.8/0.8 clicks to the right, for example.
If the numbers you're using are incorrect, or if the shot you're trying to play on a certain hole with certain conditions is not the best strategic play, or if you do not aim correctly, you will hit a bad shot; as much as if you were making the same mistake playing brain-only.

The only cases where calculators are even improving your game at all are:

1) if you're too slow / unexperienced with processing numbers in game and therefore a calculator makes you save time (read below about pace of play), and

2) if you simply do not know / haven't found / haven't tried to find how to calculate some factors, in which case a calculator gives you some artificial knowledge, because you can just type numbers, aim "somewhere close" and then "pray it's gonna be good somehow".

Whoever is not concerned by either case will not even play better with them.

So that makes two categories of "calculator players", the latter being the most common case, the most frustrating and the funniest to see at the same time 😀 For those players, a good shot is "lucky", and a bad shot is "unlucky"; or not exactly unlucky, because some mistakes are actually recurrent with that playstyle.

Category 1) calculator players originally have a good understanding of what they're doing. They're simply trying to optimise their pace of play, while also trying to cut down some errors that may come from slow or inaccurate mind calculation. They're still able to analyse and think on top of what their data gives as numbers to play; which makes them able to adapt their plays situationally. They're also able to edit their sheet / calculator formulas or able to build a sheet themselves.

Most of the time, category 2) calculator players feel they're doing good overall, but there's a major problem when you belong to category 2) that most ignore: you cannot fix your mistakes, because you don't have enough game physics awareness to be able to analyse them. Therefore, you won't be able to improve your game because you're hard stuck with using something you have never dug into, it works more or less fine, but all of this remains black magic to you.

This leads them sometimes to think that anyone better than themselves must be doing exactly the same thing than them but better or with simply more accurate data.

I've also read a few times from players that have been playing with calculators for a very long time "I'm close to the hole everytime but I can't putt, that's the only difference". (plot twist: not really close everytime and not exactly the only difference, as putting is not the only thing calculators can't help with).
That's an illustration of the "hard-stuck-with-something-you-have-never-dug-into" problem. So if I give advice to someone like that I always try to open up room for self-improvement, rather than straight giving more meaningless numbers.

 

• I read above that calculators were made with "dev's secret formulas" that were indispensable to get a usable result. Those do not exist. That's surely another myth that is still living up to this date.
Calculators do use the same parameters as a human being would use when processing entirely with their mind. In any calculator or sheet you have to enter manually the same parameters you cited (weather, distance, elevation, and the type of shot you're playing), and they're enough to get a usable result, whether you make those maths through a calculator or in your brain^^

 

• I do make a distinction like you do, between someone who uses someone else's datasheet or calculator, and someone that builds their own. But nowadays if someone is willing to build their own sheet, they likely will use parts of someone else's data and try to mess around to "make it work"; and save some research / testing time that way.

 

• I do not make any distinction between any kind of data or calculation help (except bots but since there aren't any for the game, I won't consider this an existing possibility). Whether you use a calculator, a chipping sheet, a putting sheet (lol), notes about setups or aiming cues on some holes, I don't care.

They are all a different kind of help, but they all respond to the same purpose, which is assisting the human being in his gameplay, and they all use manmade datasets or formulas. Most of us use or store data to help our game, to some extent. That's why I don't understand why I should consider one of those as cheating, and the rest as perfectly fine, at the same time. And that's not considering the fact that it'd be impossible to control it. It's already very hard to control identity behind a keyboard, even though it's a pillar of competitive integrity and everything that is possible to do in regard to this, hasn't always been done in the past unfortunately.

 

• Pace of play with / without calculator is mostly player dependent. Some people are slow to navigate between windows and manipulate a sheet, so they burn a lot of time doing so. Some people would be faster and more efficient with a sheet or calculator, than if they do everything unassisted.

I've heard left and right assumptions that shortening timer gives people playing without calculators an advantage because they're supposed to be faster, and the opposite as well, shorter timer helps to counter calculator users because it becomes impossible to use it and play below a certain amount of time...

Those are generic assumptions but the truth is pace varies from person to person and - as much as in Open Tour you can think over a shot and play it in less than 30s - you can certainly do the same using a sheet in less than 30s, granted you are experienced on the course and fast enough to think your shot, and if your interface is easy to use.

 

So as a conclusion - whatever you're doing with timer: you're giving an advantage to fast players over slow players if you shorten shot clock, and taking off some advantage that fast players have over slow players if you lengthen it. And that's regardless of how they play, unassisted, partly assisted with charts, using calculator sheets. It's just a matter of considering pace of play a prime quality over pure accuracy, or a bit less of a prime quality and favor accuracy a bit more. I don't really have an opinion on the question, except that I would advocate against 90s in any case.

The sweet spot surely is somewhere between 45 and 60; most tournaments everywhere are played in 45s, a few others in 60s.
30s is too demanding for many people that don't really have quick fingers, and we can see with some Open Tour rooms that quality of play drops significantly for most players. It is not reduced to a lottery, simply, your pace, so everything that helps that (quick interface manipulation, quick thinking so good experience on the course) becomes even more important.